A modern take on the 16-bit era, A Valley Without Wind 2 blends a variety of mechanics across multiple genres, seamlessly bringing together the best qualities of old-school platform-shooters and turn-based strategy games.
Mixed
227 Steam reviews
| LANGUAGE | AUDIO | SUBTITLES | INTERFACE |
|---|---|---|---|
| English | Y | — | Y |
A Valley Without Wind 2 is an unconventional hybrid of action platforming and strategic gameplay developed and published by Arcen Games. Released in 2013, the game was designed as a complete reimagining of its predecessor rather than a traditional sequel. While the original A Valley Without Wind leaned heavily into procedural exploration and sandbox-style mechanics, the second installment rebuilds the concept around a clearer structure and a more focused campaign. The result is a game that blends multiple genres together, combining turn-based strategic management with real-time side-scrolling combat in a fantasy setting filled with magical battles and tactical decision-making.
The story centers on a powerful tyrant named Demonaica, a nearly immortal ruler who has conquered the world and established an oppressive regime that dominates every remaining civilization. Players take on the role of a mage who infiltrates Demonaica’s ranks and manages to obtain the same immortality that protects the villain. With this newfound power, the protagonist becomes one of the few individuals capable of challenging Demonaica’s reign. The player then leads a growing resistance movement dedicated to stripping the tyrant and his generals of their immortality before confronting them in a final battle. The narrative unfolds gradually throughout the campaign, providing context for the player’s strategic objectives while maintaining a dark fantasy tone that reflects the devastated world under Demonaica’s control.
One of the most distinctive aspects of the game is its dual-layer gameplay system. The experience alternates between a strategic overworld map and individual side-scrolling action missions. On the overworld map, players manage the resistance army in a turn-based format. They move units across a grid-like battlefield, gather resources, construct buildings, and recruit new allies to strengthen their forces. Enemy armies constantly move across the map as well, attempting to capture territory and threaten the player’s settlements. This layer of gameplay emphasizes planning and positioning, as players must carefully manage their resources and anticipate enemy movements to maintain control of the battlefield.
Whenever two opposing forces meet or a specific location is explored, the game transitions into a side-scrolling action stage. In these segments, players directly control a mage character who must defeat enemies and navigate through platforming challenges. Combat revolves around magical attacks and abilities that can be customized through various upgrades and perks. Players dodge enemy projectiles, unleash spells, and move through hazardous environments while trying to clear each area of hostile creatures. Although the platforming mechanics are relatively simple compared to dedicated action games, they provide an engaging contrast to the slower pace of the strategic layer.
Character progression plays a significant role in shaping the player’s combat effectiveness. Throughout the campaign, players unlock different mage classes and abilities that influence how the character performs in battle. Some builds emphasize raw magical power, allowing players to unleash powerful attacks capable of eliminating enemies quickly. Others focus on defensive abilities that improve survivability during difficult encounters. Because players can adjust their character’s abilities between missions, the game encourages experimentation with different combinations of skills and equipment to find strategies that suit individual playstyles.
The strategic layer also includes a progression system tied to expanding the resistance movement. As players capture territories and complete objectives, they gain access to additional resources and structures that strengthen their army. New units can be recruited to defend key locations, and buildings can be constructed to support the growing resistance network. These elements add a sense of long-term development to the campaign, as the player gradually transforms a small insurgent force into a powerful faction capable of challenging Demonaica’s empire.
Procedural generation plays an important role in the game’s design. Many of the environments and encounters are generated dynamically, ensuring that each playthrough unfolds differently. The placement of enemies, terrain features, and certain objectives can vary between missions, creating a sense of unpredictability throughout the campaign. This system helps prevent the gameplay from becoming overly repetitive, although it can sometimes result in levels that feel less carefully designed than those found in fully handcrafted games.
Visually, A Valley Without Wind 2 adopts a retro-inspired 2D art style that draws inspiration from classic platformers of earlier gaming eras. Characters and environments are presented using colorful pixel art, giving the game a nostalgic appearance while maintaining clarity during combat. The various regions of the world feature distinct visual themes, ranging from ruined cities and haunted landscapes to magical forests and ancient structures. While the graphical style is relatively simple compared to modern high-budget titles, it effectively supports the game’s fantasy atmosphere and gameplay mechanics.
The audio design complements the visuals with a soundtrack that blends atmospheric melodies and energetic battle themes. Exploration sequences on the strategic map are often accompanied by calmer music that reinforces the contemplative nature of planning moves and managing resources. When players enter combat stages, the music shifts toward more intense compositions that heighten the sense of urgency. Sound effects for spells, enemy attacks, and environmental interactions provide clear feedback during action sequences, ensuring that players can react quickly during chaotic battles.
One of the most interesting aspects of the game is its willingness to experiment with genre combinations. By merging turn-based strategy with real-time action platforming, the developers attempted to create a gameplay loop that requires both tactical planning and reflex-based combat skills. This design allows players to experience two different styles of gameplay within a single campaign. Strategic decisions made on the overworld map influence the challenges faced during platforming missions, creating a sense of interconnected systems that shape the overall progression.
However, the game’s ambitious design also leads to some noticeable shortcomings. The transition between the strategic and action layers can sometimes feel abrupt, as the two systems operate quite differently. While the strategy component provides a sense of scale and long-term planning, it does not reach the depth of dedicated strategy games. Similarly, the platforming segments are enjoyable but relatively simple compared to specialized action titles. As a result, the hybrid approach may leave some players wishing that one of the two gameplay styles had been developed further.
Overall, A Valley Without Wind 2 is an ambitious and experimental game that attempts to combine multiple genres into a single cohesive experience. While its hybrid design may not appeal to everyone, it demonstrates a creative approach to gameplay that few other titles attempt. Players who enjoy strategy games, action platformers, or unusual genre blends may find the game particularly intriguing. Although the execution is occasionally uneven, the game’s innovative ideas and distinctive structure make it a memorable entry in the world of indie gaming.
Rating: 6/10
Nah, i dont know the artstyle is just BAD. The gameplay feels cheap nothing i can recommend at all.
I never gave part 1 a try because skippity skippity skip skip , just because I don't want to and no one said to play sequel before prequel, because its 2025 and I am playing a 2012 game (Which seems like if it were just yesterday but bleh,. and so what, its not like its 1912) So, yeah for a good reason I never cared for part 1 because it doesn't seem to be like Harry Potter-ish synchronous storyline (Maybe some more buttons, visually intense and appealing sandbox and procedurally generated infinite world littered with chests, 6-7 achievements just for opening each chest , 6-7 achievements just for killing a bad guy, 6-7 achievements just for making a leg move, which is like Soooooo devilishly, head scratchingly, scooby dooby doodly fun, ) So I kept playing . And I enjoyed like tons. And it cured my prolonged depression permanently. Better than therapy. Cheaper than therapy. Funnier than therapy.
(Although my therapist is now jealous and won’t return my calls.) Trust me, It’s like the game has a PhD in instant gratification and a minor in giving your brain a dopamine bath.
So, at the end, I will be left wondering How the part 1 would have been like and what made this one different and improved over that one , the one that I never tried and the one that I will never try (because 2012 is understandable but 2011 ?? No thanks !)
Yoikes. Not sure if this game is good or not because the font is tiny - particularly on high res - and I already have enough eye strain! So that's a not recommended then.
Don't bother. First game is trippy and an experience itself into what can be achieved when you disconnect your game design from normal conventions. Even though it was a 'infinite sand box' it had a much better base game loop than this one. The way you could just waste away your time there doing infinite looking dungeons. At least you got useful stuff to bring forward the day when you met the Overlord.
This one? For me this is the first true fail for Arcen even if i am a fan of their work. This one was a attempt at organizing the chaos they created in the first one and it didn't work. Managing survivors on the map where they are being hunted while you do relatively annoying runs through levels to get x or kill off a storm mill gets old quick. Talking story characters and named boss fights don't help as much as you would expect.
I suppose it's worth a spin after playing the first one but unless the game loop activity interests you then it wont carry itself far. Achievements are not worth much either these days so unless this one is in your library from a bundle then i would pass this one. First one is still worth it for the 'weird everything' thing going on. This one just doesn't have a hook at all or at least i could not find it in this game time and it seems i have collected quite many achievements already. I doubt there is a 'it gets better later' -moment coming here.
It's been forever since I played this game. I was one of the folks that bought AVWW the first and got this one for free because Arcen realized that the original was too inconsistent to be worth completing. I remember the side-scroller of the first one being more fun than the rebuilt one, and liked the strategic exploration of this one better, but the side scroller parts being pretty terrible. I ultimately decided Arcen's games runs on good vibes, but their actual gameplay is godawful.
Anyway, I mostly decided to write this review because I was trawling through my hidden games to see if any were worth salvaging, and those vibes pulled me back to the store page to read reviews. They reminded me that Against the Storm managed to pull off the formula it seemed like this was trying for. The inner game is a Settlers-style resource manager w/ quest elements. The outer is a choose-your-own-adventure style fog of war. The whole thing is wrapped up in a rogue-lite, which makes it a nice thing to pick up, win or lose, and keep going. That's a lot of the charm of games that try to make the formula work--and what I think was missing in both AVWW 1 and 2.
нет
Igen
Solid game.
.
Умер мужик. Друзья стоят у гроба:
— А он неплохо выглядит.
— Ещё бы, три дня не пьёт.
we need chinese, we need chinese, we need chinese. 我们需要中文。没中文先差评。202210本平台充值折扣，支付宝红包（？），humble，杉果（？），fanatical，本平台，本平台掉卡零钱，淘宝，它处自定义包入的本体4元。目前就这，看以后追评。
This game in microcosm: You only have one equipment slot and no inventory/storage. This does not stop the game from throwing useless gear at you as a "reward".
Don't play this game.
Так плохо, что даже ужасно.
Just not good, a too much mix gender of everything... for me at least, could even complete one run...
A Valley Without Wind 2 (2013)
While number two is a slight improvement over number one this game is still pretty bad to say the least. There are a lot of classes to choose from, some you only get later in the game, with their own unique play style. But much like number one there are too many abilities to work with so once you get that sweet overpowered ability, why bother using anything els. There was this one person's guide on how to play this game (it was a great guide) and it's so much reading you need to do. Normally that would be fine, but in game you can just say what you need to do in a few sentences, not internal dialogue. Number two is better then whatever number one was but I would still say skip this game, unless you actually played number one and got more patience then I have.
5/10
I dig it. If you like the first one then you may like this one too. If you didn't, then you won't.
Besser als der 1. Teil, kann ich trotzdem nicht Empfehlen.
Gaming on:
Details über mein Laptop hier: https://valid.x86.fr/4zvdwc
Performance Test hiert: https://www.userbenchmark.com/UserRun/49244514
My Personal Game Score: 3 / 10
-Confusing game.
-The first game is a little better than this.
-Sub-standard game of the first version.
Same as the first game there are some interesting ideas in here but it's put together in such a way that completely kills my interest. Messed up controls, a general clunky feeling, and somehow this version managed to deliver this mess even worse than before. Even harder pass on this one.
This game keeps trying to lure me in with some good looking ideas but they are full of constant bad design choices. Enemies are NOT fun to fight and are not rewarding enough to make it worth your while. Bosses are boring and the overworld is unbalanced as hell.
Avoid like the plague.
I gave this game as many chances as I could- 26 hours in, and I'm 100% confident I can say this is not worth playing, even if you loved the first one.
Let's skip all the reasons I straight subjectively dislike it, and get right to the bugs.
When the music ends and loops, there is a 2 - 5 second delay, guaranteed, everytime. I'm not keen on technical jargin, but basically, it skips that many frames. Or, in other words, it fills in what it thinks you were doing in that amount of time. If you were in a frantic fight and slightly holding right, have fun dying in a pit of lava. This actually happened to me twice! Other times it ran me into enemies and also died.
There was another. Whatever, I forgot. It sucks that the adviser doesn't let you know where the citadels are to be able to infiltrate the main dungeon. This goes for any tile that it doesn't outright tell you where it is. So many times I've been one tile away from a space I needed but the game's coloring of unpurified tiles is so dark I had no idea I'd been right next to it.
I would explain what purifying tiles means, but really, truly, it's not worth it. Hard pass on this one. The first game is miles better. I tried.
Still as janky as the first one. You can screw yourself in the strategy section pretty easily. He added mouse aiming but it doesn't add much. Multiplayer isn't great but with coordination you can really make something happen. Its not pretty at all, but no true roguelike is.
I personally find it fun to just endlessly plow through areas so I was not disappointed at all.
This is a confused 2D retro pixel "16 bit" action platformer with "strategy" elements where you jump around a lot of platforms and collect stuff and fight stuff, then play a metagame which is a kind of lame town building strategy thing, I don't know.
The implementation here is just rubbish. 2D platformers died not long after Donkey Kong introduced them in 1981. Arcen games plunged on regardless, making a game that kind of runs on modern PCs but with no display scaling, so you get tiny, unreadable text accompanying clunky, terrible platformer gameplay. This is the sequel to an earlier game with all the same problems, but it's worse. Like, the Highlander 2 of "A Valley Without Wind", if "A Valley Without Wind" was a good product.
I'm not a platform fan, but I really wanted to at least try this after disliking AVWW1 given the comments that it has more focused gameplay than the first.
I liked the controls way less than AVWW1, but I liked the immediacy of the plot and the strategy screen. Again, I feel way out of my depth with this game, which if anything has more love and care in it than the first game, but I'm just not a fan of platforming. I really enjoyed the filler texts for items and spells and such, and if you liked AVWW1, you'd probably like the gameplay twists for AVWW2.
The graphics seem "more realistic" in that reality has a lot of brown dirt and debris. I like the different direction, but it is a bit harder for me to pick out relevant details like monster vs. colorful debris, but that would probably get better if I played a lot.
I like this game's potential more than the first, but it is less accessible to me, a platformer-disliker, especially since they don't want you to use a mouse and (though they still let you use it) they designed the game around not using a mouse for aiming and they tell you this up front.
Эта игра не стоит потраченного времени..
Tomó lo del 1er juego y lo dejó igual de horrible.
Lo cerré con Alt+F4.
No pude esperar al menu.
Very different from the first one and all in all not as good but still good fun in its own way. Definitely play with the sounds on the music is super good.
···又有一个看不懂的游戏~
地图像个迷宫，跑啊跑~跑半天都没跑完~不知道玩啥的游戏~
I'd like to recommend this game; it is in a style and genre mix that I enjoy, but it has too many problems to really gel with me. It was really frustrating at times - I barely scraped by at normal difficulty - and is still riddled with bugs.
Still, if you are a fan of the first, you may still appreciate this extension to the VwoW universe. And the music, which is alternative versions of the tunes from the first installment, is still awesome although I prefer the chippy versions of the original.
This really is just a straight up downgrade in most aspects from the first one. All the good things I liked about the first one were stripped for an experience that isn't even worthy of the cringe value. What really broke the game for me was realizing that just holding down all my attack buttons and dodging projectiles was the most effective way to approach the side-scrolling aspect. The strategy component is okay at best. I would just stick to the first one, which is nice that they come together.
As the movie "Night of the Templar" deserved a sequel, this licence deserved one as well, and oh god it got one! This game is truely a perl. It has few good ideas in it, but in the meantime, it looks/feels and flows terribly wrong(like the first one, except imho it is probably even worse). If you have some taste, and are able to get to 2nd degree, maybe try this. This licence truelly deservces its place in the history of video games, and people who have worked on it maybe need to write a book or to do some consulting, because they have things to share.
Playing this game should be illegal, getting into that is close to taking psychoactive substances.
Hum... The mixed reviews for this game are right cause this is a mixed bag. The game is many things, lots of things and way too many. It's a platformer, strategic, turn-based, RPG, management, rogue-like, procedural, adventure game. Sounds like fun? Yeah, but not for long. It's like a pizza with all the toppings or a 99 flavor ice-cream. They just put all the things they thought would be cool and it turned up to be a collage of ideas and mechanics that are not blended too well.
No bugs or crashes. Runs fine on Win 7.
You can't deny the developers put love into the making of this. The music is pretty good. The graphics are nice to look at. The story is simple but not that bad. Plenty replayability. But, as a game, it falls short in everything. As a platformer is uninspired, as strategic is too random and chaotic, as turn-based is way too simple, as an RPG is too basic... you get it, it's a jack of all trades and master of none. If you're really patient you might be willing to sink a decent amount of hours reading a lot of explanations that might get you even more confused. Once you're losing there's no way to overcome it. The outcome of the game depends too much on your initial turns and the randomness of the maps can doom your efforts even before you take your first move.
Overall, it's a very niche game. I wouldn't say is a terrible game but the design flaws are many. It's just too ambitious for its own good. I recommend it only if you get it for cheap and only if you're very lenient with indie experiments. I will give it a thumbs up but only for the effort and nothing else.
It has the same problems as the first game where it attempts to do everything only for each mechanic to fall flat.
A Valley Without Wind 2 is an odd game, but very fun! It is an RPG kinda... with some overworld strategy mixed in. Try it out, you will not regret it!
Beyond all that Arcen Games is one of the best developers there is! constant updates! very responsive! and so creative! I own all of their library and I fully recommend all their games!
There is a good strategy game trapped inside, that wants to be set free of the shackles of the half-baked platformer it is chained to.
This would be an excellent game if the platforming sections were replaced with a dice roll instead. And no, setting the difficulty of the platforming to the easiest setting is only a patchwork solution, since then I still have to slog through a long-winded platforming level to make one turn in the strategy game.
Please Arcen Games, make A Valley Without Wind 2 Remastered, where you remove the platforming all together and focus on the strategy game.
Imagine you've got yourself a nice old still fairly decent VW Vento from an old dude next door who loved his car and cared for its with his best effort. Sure, it might have a few stains here and there, clutch is a bit wobbly, and the interior is a tiny tad dusty, but it has its charm. It drives, sounds, looks as it should, and you feel like you've got something special going, even though it's ain't the most legendary legendest legend or the fastest rat in the hood. And then you decide, yeah, whatever, BOOOORING - let's make a street-rod out of it. No, a racing car! Yeah, that's gotta do! You strip it to almost barebones, leave just the minimum seating, wheel, etc. (did not even install the rollcage yet - still waiting for your next paycheck). Would you drive it? Nah, you'll finish the project first. It ain't a cool collectible anymore and it is certainly ain't packing any racing heat yet. It's a freaking bucket.
That's the Valley Without Wind 2 - a bucket (a rusty one, with some holes in it). Blueprint: strip everything nice off the first instalment, do not bring anything new to the table, leave only jank and clunk, and slap an extra digit on it!
Awkward no-mouse aiming? Check!
No lore expansion? Check!
Terrible dialogs? You've got that!
No suits, little amount of skills, no crafting system, no cool crate-and-ledge platforming from the previous game, horrendous graphics with disgusting parallax in the background, unbalanced enemies, boring bosses, uninspiring bioms, missing side-quests, and that's without even mentioning the...
Oh yeah, the music is pretty good.
Save yourself some time. Please.
[h1]Описание:[/h1]
Спустя три года после игрового опыта в первой части, решил добраться и до второй. Игра все така-же не гостеприимная к новым игрокам, несмотря на добавленное обучение, снижение рандома и казуализацию игрового процесса. Несмотря на это все, перед нами все также непонятный метроидовидальный платформер со странным миром и геймплеем. Единственное, что осталось шикарным в игре - саундтрек. Он чуть хуже чем в первой части, но все равно это единственное что меня приманивало к этой серии игр. Саундтреки шикарны и это факт. В саму игру гонять не советую...
[h1]Оценка: 4/10[/h1]
[h1]Послесловие:[/h1]
Если вам понравился этот обзор добро пожаловать в группу
http://steamcommunity.com/groups/uojer - тут вы сможете увидеть рекомендованные мною игры, другие обзоры, а также просто пообщаться в хорошей компании.
Very weird game. Got it for 3$ (sales <3) so I can finally play it and test it out myself.
It has more cons than pros for me, and I also give it a negative review as in "I don't recommend it to almost anyone", but [b]unlike[/b] most other games nowadays, it did make me enjoy or even hooked for a while, so I kinda feel bad for reviewing this negatively, but there are too many flaws to ignore.
Pros:
[list]
[*][b]Exclusively Skillshot-based combat[/b]
Your abilities are also very bizzare abilities (imagine shooting at a straight line)
[spoiler]You must enable the mouse targetting at settings, because it is not default... And I see it as mandatory to play this. I legit cannot imagine anyone enjoying playing this without mouse since you can shoot only in 3 directions and everything is so mobile and fast[/spoiler]
[*][b]A dazzling amount of areas/levels[/b]
[*][b]Turn-Based Strategy done [u]right[/u].[/b]
The Strategic layer is the thing that sets it apart. It is a metroidvania but with a strategy map where you command your [strike]minions[/strike]recruits. So, you explore and expand the map by going to places yourself, and your recruits do everything else. Resource management exists (food as an upkeep for recruits/scrap to build buildings/morale for effectiveness of recruits) and by building and assigning each one to a tile/building, you improve these.
However, this is not some "pull someone into a farm to make food"....
There is combat too. Nothing fancy (which is good, being complex isn't good), but monsters spawn around certain locations, and you must defend them with your recruits. Eventually (when early-game ends), big bad boss spawns, and chases to kill everyone. That means, if you built everything onto a few adjacent tiles, then you are about to lose, since the big bad boss is invulnerable and never dies. It prevents camping/turtling. So, you expand on the explored area of yours, with those recruits building stuff left and right, while the boss perma-kills them. This makes the strategic map dynamic with the monsters too, instead of building and snowballing the game with boredom.
So, the biggest pro in this game, and what gets me playing is that it got right what matters:
"[b][u]Just One More Turn[/u][/b]".
You see where you want to explore/tiles to unlock for your recruits, you get in, you kill everything, then onto the world map, you build stuff and move your recruits appropriately. Repeat. Super satisfying gameplay loop not gonna lie, and its short on top of that <3
[/list]
Neutral:
[list]
[*][b]The Artstyle[/b]
There are 3~5 different artstyles from what I noticed in the game, and it shows. However, I find it refreshing to see tbh, however, sometimes the artstyle clashes too harshly. So, most people will dislike it for sure, since it is not consistent and high-quality, however I like it, hence the neutral category.
[*][b]The Music[/b]
The main theme is 100% [b]HYPE[/b], legit feels like you are about to play an incredible game you will never forget. But aside of that, the rest of the music is ambience. But its not bad, since it sets the mood right most of the times. Hence the neutral here, because you may dislike ambience music (ofc, you can turn it off and blast your playlist in the background)
[*][b]The Multiplayer[/b]
Haven't played it, can't judge. But I do appreciate that the developers support full multiplayer in this game, I will definitely get into this if I find replayability to the game, aka I finish it and want to replay it.
[*][b]Procedurally Generated World[/b]
You may not like this, because it is not hand-crafted. Though, I didn't notice, until I read it on the store page, so that means they must have done a good job with this. Adds a lot of replayability, for those who want to replay it.
[/list]
Cons:
[list]
[*][b]The Camera[/b]
Perhaps the worse camera in any 2D game. Ever gotten damaged by off-screen enemies? Yeah, happens all the time. It never zooms in or out, it just moves a little to the left or right depending on your movement. So even if it moved properly, the zoom is really really bad, its un-needed sometimes because this is a skillshot game, and I cannot see how far away my enemies are...
[*][b]The Movement[/b]
You feel like you play a crippled mario.
You move left and right, with an meh speed, and you can jump. That's all there is to it. No high jumping, no wall-jumping, no momentum feel, no high speeds ever.
The platforming legit feels worse than the original mario...
[*][b]The Balancing[/b]
Not gonna mention the enemies, since I did dropped difficulty a lot because I hate meat-sponges (20 seconds of hitting a fodder enemy to kill it smh wtf)
The balancing, means the player class' progression. There are 5 tiers of classes in-game. That's a lot, since at least 5 classes per tier. However, I am at tier 2, and there is a certain tier 1 class, that is extremely better, than any tier 2 class... That is sad. Because when I mean tiers, I don't mean levels. 5 tiers is the endgame, and tier 2 is early to midgame...
[*][b]The Sound Effects[/b]
Not horrible by any means, but just meh. Incredly forgettable/generic and unsatisfying. But at least they deliver the proper sound cue or effect, and I'm glad they at least exist in this kind of game.
[*][b]The Animations[/b]
Horrible, bad bad bad. The enemies' is even worse, if they even have one aside of walking/running lmao. But the player's is really bad tbh. Kinda sad, but whatever, it's not a deal-breaker to me at all, since I barely see my character when im trying to focus on enemies and skillshots.
[*][b]The Bossfights[/b]
At least they are not boring lel. Like, they dont have invulnerable phases, where you have to wait a million years for them to be vulnerable again. No bs moves either. They just walk on a platform shooting ♥♥♥♥ at you, while fodder are trying to get you. Pretty easy and predictable tbh. Then when they lose X of their life, they teleport deeper into the dungeon. The fighting area has Y depth, unlike some tunnel-levels in the game, and the enemies attack you a lot. But it just sucks, because the bosses are weak af with predictable/slow projectiles and the monsters arent infinite, so you can just slowly kill the enemies, then focus on the boss, which is an absolute weakling everytime.
And ofc, every bossfight is essentially the same, but like I said, at least its not boring because you can go at your own pace guns blazing, or turtling to victory safely. And it also refreshes the pace since its a different kind of gameplay than killing enemies and advancing in a level, or doing strategy map stuff.
[*][b]The Polishing[/b]
It really feels like there is a lot of content in this game, and a lot of effort was spent making it. But the game lacks polish for sure. A lot is needed.
[/list]
If you still want to play the game after having read all of this, [b]ENABLE THE MOUSE SETTINGS[/b], because otherwise, you will be playing with some botched d-pad control settings, where every enemy is super mobile, and you can only shoot 0/45/90 degrees...
I legit cannot believe the default control settings are keyboard-exclusive... Eight-Way aiming in 2019... Every enemy that doesnt move in a straight line is highly mobile, so it is impossible to hit without mouse!
If I had to take a guess, you will like this, only if you are looking to play a unique platformer/metroidvania, since no other platformer or metroidvania game, has incorporated proper/fun strategic elements like this. But if you do, with all the replayability value onto this game(multiplayer + so many different classes + procedurally generated world that is actually good), you are bound to spend a lot of time with it (20 hours+)
Even if you dont plan on replaying the game (like me as of now), having experienced all the flaws above as you have seen, I still like this game, and enjoyed my time with it thus far, but I legit wouldn't recommend it to almost anyone.
Bon mix de stratégie et de plateforme !
No. Has way too much of an amateur feel for me to even bother with. Seems exactly like the first game but with worse default controls somehow.
Игра подходит хорошо для тех, кому нравятся игры самострои. Мне не подошло.
[i][b]Не особо отличается от первой части, но суда завезли других нпц уже неплохо, но все равно мне не особо понравилось, эти игры на любителя.[/b][/i]
[h1] DISCLAIMER: This is a first impressions review, and NOT a full review [/h1]
A Valley Without Wind 2 is a game developed and published by Arcen Games, LLC and is the sequel to A Valley Without Wind
The game offers some pleasant graphics and graphical style, although some ugly glitches here and there, it is pleasant all the same
However, the story is a little generic, but better than nothing, as well as the gameplay is a platformer type of game but also a bit generic, as well as quests are more or less generic. The game has some really sub-par voice acting, nothing stellar. This game is almost all generic...
A Valley Without Wind 2 is a generic game but fun nonetheless
[h1] RECOMMENDED :) [/h1]
[b] REVIEW SOURCES: [/b]
[list]
[*] None
I like this.
I can't recommend this game in 2018.
Tags: Sidescroll - Survival & Questing
Additional Tags: Delete Local Content & Remove from Library
TLDR: Shoddily crafted, with enormous empty maps full of spammed recycled assets. Obtuse user interface. Wall of text in tiny speech bubbles. Hard pass.
Neither the mechanics nor their integration within the controls and UI really flow. The game is a tad cryptic and confusing as well on top of its assault with tutorial exposition. From what I gather this is a procedural generation and you get different seeds depending on which areas you explore, while you do, you can recruit and get ressources to fortify a central place and defend it from assaults. I would say to just go straight to Terraria and Starbound if you were here for a Metroidvania with light RPG mechanics. If you want to manage ressources, hire people then go for Battle brothers.
https://store.steampowered.com/app/365360/Battle_Brothers/
https://store.steampowered.com/app/105600/Terraria/
https://store.steampowered.com/app/211820/Starbound/
One of the things I liked about the first game was how easy it was to mod the textures. I had a bit of fun with that. This game doesn't even seem to have that going for it :(
El juego es bueno si aguantas los gráficos simples también tiene una buena dificultad
Thumb up!
My second pick for Love Indies Week.
How come noboty talks about this game ?
They talked about the first one, saying it was addictive and that was a bad thing.
It received a lot of bad press.
So the creator decided to make a second game and give it freely to the owners of the first game.
This game is a mix of platformer and turn based strategy. A very innovative mix.
You choose the level you're gonne try to beat next according to strategic choices. You also have to recruit and manage allies who produce ressources.
This game really deserve more love and attention. (Unpopular opinion : I also liked the first game).
I really felt that AVWW2 didn't really improve much from it's predecessor. Still mashed a bunch of ideas together in hopes something worked. Nothing that interesting of a story or characters felt too plain.
Don't bother playing a game that doesn't improve from the game it's a sequel of. I'm not writing this game off too quickly except that I hate it when sequels are made and they fail to be any better than what they're sequels of. Pure principle.
It's kind of funny. This game is a LOT more coherently built than the first AVWW, with all the parts that don't work fully excised and a better framework built around your adventuring. Heck, the turn based strategy game that acts as a framework for the action/exploration segments is actually GOOD.
And yet, due to how much more it limits what you can do, how much less varied your goals are, and how much less varied the environments are, it's a lot less fun. You're always just trying to get from one end of the level to the other. There's a handful of human minibosses that repeat themselves instead of a variety of monsters. You're stuck with a limited selection of spells instead of picking your favorites. Which biome you explore is dictated by overworld strategy concerns rather than what you actually feel like playing. Etcetera.
There's no room to enjoy the environments or the music, the exploration has been gutted since all levels are linear treks, and combat feels lifeless. It's one step forward, two steps back. I stuck with it for quite a while because I wanted to see the campaign through, but I don't think I had that much fun doing so.
This is a pretty great follow up to the original. They added more strategy in to the mix as well. I don't remember the first one haveing a class system like this one did either. Also the writing for the tutorials is pretty great too. The even reference parts where they got stuck in the first spot. I like it I plan to gid in to it more often as well.
When creating your world you can choose the two difficulties. One affects the strategy and battle difficulty. give it a shot its neat!
Ein Plattformshooter-?, Rollen-? oder Strategiespiel? Keine Ahnung welchem Genre ich dieses Spiel zuordnen sollte. Es scheint von allem etwas zu sein. Habe auch nie verstanden, worum es bei ''A Valley Without Wind 2'' geht und worauf man in dem strategischen Part des Spieles hinarbeitet.
Den größten Teil des Spieles, rennt man durch verschiedene, zumindest sehr abwechslungsreiche Gebiete, kämpft gegen unzählige abstrakt gezeichnete Monster, sammelt diverse Items ein, deren Verwendung sich mir bis heute nicht erschlossen hat und erhält dabei durchgehend Unmengen an Errungenschaften. Es reicht schon simpel eine Truhe zu öffnen und Achievements ploppen über dem Bildschirm auf.
Momente in denen man sich kurz wie ein Held fühlt! Denn in welchem anderen Plattform-, Rollen- Strategie... ach was weiß ich Spiel, bekommt man schon Achievements für das simple betätigen einer Taste.
Es sind jedoch Momente, die allerdings nur kurz anhalten, da man in den von zahlreichen Monstern bevölkerten Gebieten sehr schnell stirbt, was dazu führt, dass die Gebiete noch schwerer werden und von noch mehr Monstern bevölkert wird, was erneut einen schnellen Tod zu Folge hat und wiederum verursacht, dass die Gebiete mit deutlich deutlich mehr und schwereren Monstern gefüllt wird...... Ein Teufelskreis, aus dem man kaum wieder herausfindet.
Zum Glück!, gibt es die Möglichkeit kooperativ durch die Gebiete zu streifen, dabei vor den schweren Monstern wegzurennen oder zu kämpfen und zu sterben und ähm irgendwelche Gebäude auf der Strategiekarte zu bauen.
Die Erfahrung jedoch hat gezeigt, dass auch kooperativ das Spiel sehr schwierig ist und man mit einem Freund durch die Spielwelt streift und gemeinsam keiner weiß, was man dort eigentlich genau zu tun hat.
Eines Tages vielleicht, werde ich das Spielprinzip und die Handlung von ''A Valley Without Wind 2'' verstehen und die Genialität der Devs hinter dem Konzept des Spiels festellen.
Kurzum fällt es mir schwer, eine klare Empfehlung für ''A Valley Without Wind 2'' auszusprechen.
Der Versuch es gemeinsam mit einem Freund zu spielen und zu verstehen, war jedoch eine Erfahrung, welche ich nicht missen möchte. Außerdem ist der Soundtrack im Hauptmenü überragend im Vergleich zu anderen Plattform-, Rollenspi.... jaja was was auch immer und schlägt den Soundtrack von so manch Triple A Produktion um Längen!
The mix of platformer and TBS isn't for everyone, although you always can set either arcade or strategy difficulty to newbie level and enjoy it. Especially good with a joystick but work nice with keyboard too. What else? Nice looking graphics and wonderful music. And you definitely should try it with your friends!
Такая себе игра для убить время пойдет
A bit different from the first, not really an improvement, but on the same keel. Classes and combat are fairly different this time around, but there are many more QoL features implemented to make your experience more positive. If you liked the first, you'll like this one, but keep in mind it's not just 'more of the same'.
Wtf is this.
I like A Valley Without Wind and so I want to like second one too but I can't. This game has problems that make it dull to play and even buggy in some places. It is dissapointing. There are some good things like map and more stragety but bad is too much.
На вид интересная игра.
К сожалению, у неё есть определённый порог вхождения, т.е. сесть и за пять минут разобраться не очень-то получается.
Мне вот сходу не понравилась. Но видно, что игра непростая - просто надо вдумчиво к ней подходить.
Pas mal du tout!
Ce deuxièmme jeu est bien meilleur que le premier
Avec des ennemis dès le début du jeu, une mise en route plus rapide, un aspect stratégie plutot bien géré, ...
Bref je recommande ce jeu!
Par contre je pense que c'est le genre de jeux qu'on retrouverait plus sur smartphone ou DS.
An ambitious mess with pretty ugly graphical style, and fantastic soundtrack.
Arcen do very interesting things, and while this is not exactly the most playable thing they have done, it is still pretty interesting.
At the moment I do not remember what makes it different from the first one but hey, from what I recall they come together.
Well, that's enough for me at 22 minutes in.
I *just* started playing the original and have already put in 10 hours. It's not perfect, but it's *fun* and even exploring the game world and it's mechanics.
For the sequel, it seems the devs wanted to change everything for the sake of change and experimentation. And it is decidedly much less enjoyable. Perhaps if I hadn't played the original at all, but no... this game is too much of a mess.
It appears to want to be a more straight up platformer and has a control scheme to match, encouraging you to use a gamepad over KB and mouse as in the original. In doing so, I can't help but feel that most of the gameplay and mechanics that made the original fun have been removed or extremely stripped down.
For example, via spells and enchants, there was a significant amount of character customization you could do in the original. Granted, I've had only a brief look, but being able to use only one item at a time in the sequel really limits things.
I'm guessing here, but I think that the devs, or perhaps too many players, found the original *too* complex and daunting and that explains the more limited gameplay. Personally, I much prefer the complexity. Yes, even the unusual "graph" based dungeon map that they needed to take a couple of help pages to explain. It worked, and it was a good idea on their part.
So, skip this game unless you find it on a really steep sale price. The original is worth your time regardless of sale price. It's looks dated, but it runs great even on old machines, and is a lot more fun.
meu dues do ceu, joguei isso por 39 minutos e ja foi o suficiente pra dar o veredito, a jogabilidade e ruim, dialogos imbecis q impedem a progressão do jogo amenos que vc passe eles ou os leia, o modo estrategia e desnescessario, os sprites dos personagens parece q foram feitos no paint, e a jogabilidade ta muito pior, nao tem imventario, sistema de perk muito dificil. os inimigos ficarao todos bugados, passaros andando no teto, ratos que rodopiao, robos que virao de cabeça pra baixo na sua frente e magias extremamente fortes na dificuldade media indicam que o dificil nao e la tao dificil assim. so comprem o 2-pack desse jogo pra jogar o A Valley Without Wind(1) , nao o 2, o 2 nao presta, por que eles fizerao isso com um otimo jogo eu nunca vou saber
[A valley without wind 2] est, par rapport au premier jeu, bien plus intéressant, accessible et amusant.
Sur le point de l'histoire, il y a une introduction qui explique le scénario qui reste malheureusement assez peu intéressant.
Sur le niveau du Gameplay, c'est bien mieux que le premier volet.
Le grand défaut du jeu est que pour progresser dans l'histoire, il faut explorer des lieux en continue en combattant à chaque fois les mêmes ennemis.
Je préfère vous conseiller ce jeu que si vous voulez essayer de finir le jeu et si vous n'avez pas d'autres jeux à faire.
Having dabbled with a few other games by Arcen, I picked up AVWW2 not completely sure what to expect. I was quickly engaged in the mixed strategic and adventure mechanics, which are blended in a way that make them both completely necessary to win the game. Despite what some other reviewers claim, the game does in fact have mouse aiming, but it must be enabled in the highly customizable control settings (though playing on my laptop I had no issue using keyboard aiming). I thoroughly enjoyed AVWW2, and am coming back for a second playthrough.
Not worth playing.
Dobrá hra
They took the legacy of the first game and made something completely different and inferior. It's nothing like the 1st game! They basically just stapled the name "a valley without wind" to it and wrote a crappy hybrid game with a great soundtrack.
The platforming is boring and clunky; They actually tell you that aiming with your mouse will make the game TOO easy. They literally coupldn't develope a computer game meant to use a mouse. They threw out Valley 1's controls and replaced it with a painfully floating/fuzzy unresponive slow mess. Some enemies are invulnerable unless you get within melee range despite both your main attacks being ranged. Just really lazy design choices meant to artificially create difficulty where they couldn't make the game properly.
The "strategy" is just a keep-you-head-above-water gind to win before you lose. When I was new it was hard to figure out and I felt like it was needlessly compicated. WHen I got hte hang of it it was worse than a face-book game.
和前作一样，无限大的地图，仍然没有游戏目标。
唯一能做的事：逛地图，秒怪，继续逛。
事实证明，每一款褒贬不一的游戏都不要轻易尝试。
... I wasn't a fan of the first, but after spending a bit of time with the second (which seems infinitely better in terms of knowing what to actually do) - I can kind of see the attraction of this little game... great music, basic presentation but one in which your own imagination has to do a lot of the work... it's creative, varied and I can see why people would want to play this (nice random world generator keeps things fresh) - not a bad little game at all...
AVWW2 is a turn based post-apocolytpic land/resource management game wrapping a 2d Platformer. You move troops around the map to farm, build buildings, etc. to fight the evil head honcho who can show up and wreak havoc. Monsters spawn every so many turns.
There's a number of little nuanced details about the turn-based aspect which feels like much ado about nothing. The game, like its predecessor, beats you over the head with tutorial text for the management aspects of the game (although the platforming aspect does seem to carry a little less of the complexity baggage from the first game).
The platforming here is pretty uninspired. Moving feels sluggish; I was amazed that holding down shift actually slowed down my already slow character who can jump 4 stories high.
The game warns you about using mouse+keyboard (and actively makes it a chore to set what should be default) due to it being "overpowered for the game design". Okay, so fix your game design. Playing a platformer with 2 hands on the keyboard feels like junk. Trying to play this game with a controller only feels like junk. Trying to do a hybrid of those 2 feels like junk.
The music here is much better than the first, but that's not saying much. The graphics still feel lackluster for 2013. A SNES-era retro look would probably serve the game better than what it has which carries an air of mediocrity.
Unfortunately, the whole thing feels uninspired and boring in the most insipid way possible. Technically, it possesses the aspects and features a game should have, but so many things are either poorly implemented or not implemented in a way that makes them synergistic or relevant. On the scale of quality, this game lies in that precarious spot where many things sound good on paper, but it all fails to add up to something engaging. It's like the developer had a checklist of features that they think every game should have, and they checked them all off as development progressed, but they failed to take a cohesive look at the sub par results. The game takes no risk with unique gameplay aspects. I suspect the developers felt that the genre-blending would be that unique offering, but it feels like 2 poorly developed games smashed together.
4/10. There are far better turn-based strategy games and far better platform shooters. This game is neither a jack nor a master of either trade. Save your money for something with far more polish and presentation.
A cool game about wizards that splits its time being a fully multiplayer platformer and a technically (but not actually) multiplayer strategy game.
As you can see from the mixed reviews, this game is a mixed bag. I don't really know how to describe it, VWW2 is not really an engaging game, it not horrable or anything, but still it feels empty. I guess the over arking plot of this game is to be to be empty, which the game accomplishes. The thing that turned me down was that the game feels unfinished kind of empty, like "this game has great potential" kind of empty. I don't know, its's just kind of mah
На любителя, я бы не советовал покупать.
Garbage
Норм.
401 hours of agony.
Kill me now.
I have nothing left to live for.
0/401.
Good ..
Boring.
Broken
The graphics hurt my eyes!
Good enough to play.
oyun çok kötü ,bana g2a dan random cd key ile çıktı. bu çıkacağına hiç bişey çıkmasa daha iyiydi.
I'm not the only one saying this: AVWW1 is a better game than 2.
Yep the 1st version is in my opinion more enjoyable than the sequel.
AVWW2 is more story based than .... well game based.
Yes a story line is important, but #1 had some fun, if annoying features that seem to have been downgraded.
If you own AVWW1, you may want to skip this one.
Now the tough question, if you don't own #1 do you get the Dual pack?
If it's on sale for under $10, then yes (but try the demo for #1 1st)
At $15 I just can't say go for it.
5/10 but with the changes and no demo for #2, I'm going to have to thumbs down.
I hope there will be a #3 with the best of #1 & #2
On its own a relatively lackluster game but given the impressive bar set by its predecessor this game cannot be viewed as anything other than a disappointment
Bad pls dont buy this ♥♥♥♥ steam wont refund you.
As a sequel to the first, this game is totaly different, but it is not as bad as it seems. I enjoyed it, but not as much as I enjoyed the first game. The issue with this is it is less platforming invovled. I like the soundtrack though. 7/10
Hoo boy.
The original [i]A Valley Without Wind[/i] struck me as about the quality of a particularly impressive bit of shareware in the late 90s: horribly dated by modern standards and without 1980s retro charm (though maybe that just means it came a decade early), but at the very least technically competent. Animations were smooth (though obviously based on some simple figure rendering program like Poser), the control scheme worked, the story didn't make much sense but a lot of 90s shareware didn't so I could at least poke around with it and be vaguely amused.
You will note that I only have 19 minutes on record with [i]A Valley Without Wind 2[/i].
I'm going to hold off on explaining why for just a moment. This sequel--if it can really be called that, since the whole [i]AVWW[/i] "broken reality" thing never made much narrative sense to begin with, and apparently intentionally so--has you running a rebellion against a big bad. Unlike the original [i]AVWW[/i], where you had followers who you would make go away for so many minutes to go gather firewood or whatever while you ran around the infinitely side-scrolling (well, infinitely transitioning, at least) map, this actually has a strategic map for you to tell your followers to go to places and do things and fight baddies. It's a nice touch, adding some level of strategic force movement rather than simply "Bob has a 57% chance of getting a carrot with a 99% risk of dying because Bob is a loser."
Well, I lie. It would've been a nice touch. If it worked.
If anything worked.
If [i]AVWW[/i] has the quality of decent 90s shareware, [i]AVWW2[/i] has the quality of [b]bad[/b] 90s shareware, the kind that I have spent a good decade and a half trying to forget that I grew up on. The characters have gone from smoothly-animated pre-rendered 3D geometry sprites to poorly MS Paint'd cartoons that move as though they're suffing grand mal seizures. In [i]AVWW[/i], everything was made of pre-rendered sprites so it all fit together visually. Random elements in [i]AVWW2[/i] are pre-rendered, some are drawn, others are painted, and they're all mashed together in incoherent tilesets so it's actually extremely distracting. The control system went from a simple but effective "keyboard to move, mouse to aim" system in [i]AVWW[/i] to a clunky and incoherent keyboard-only system. For a comparative example, let's say you want to shoot your magical ball-o'-death at some critter at an angle: [i]AVWW[/i], point and click. [i]AVWW2[/i], hold the right and up and fire keys at the same time and pray to whatever gods you have that you timed that perfect 45° angle shot just right because 45° angles are all you're going to be doing and also if you don't do the fire button at the right time then you're just going to jerkily leap your character up and into the target in a valiant but utterly stupid attempt to smash the enemy with her face. That's how [i]Archon[/i] worked back in the late 80s. It's as though the [i]AVWW2[/i] was coded for a particularly archaic D-pad setup. Everything about it is completely retrograde from the original.
It's completely unforgivable, since these people were able to make something competent, if not particularly impressive before. However, it's also unimaginably hilarious. It is so bad you just have to stop and laugh at everything.
And then just stop, since there's absolutely no point to go on any further with it.
There's certainly no point in actually spending money on the experience.
████████████████████████████████████████
█─███─██─██─█─██─█────█────█─██─█────█─█
█─███─██─██─█─█─██─██─█─██─█─██─█─██─█─█
█─█─█─██─█──█──███────█────█────█─██─█─█
█─█─█─██──█─█─█─██─██─█─████─██─█─██─███
█──────█─██─█─██─█─██─█─████─██─█────█─█
████████████████████████████████████████
J'ai pas aimé le jeu
Interessante Mischung aus Platformer und Rundenstrategie
Hier kommt es sowohl auf Geschicklichkeit wie auch geschicktes Ressourcenmanagement an.
Hey everyone and this is my review about the game!
This is a Platform game.
[h1]Interface/Menu/Settings[/h1]
The Main menu music is the best of all. Even better than the game itself!
You are able to play with the controller.
You are able to change the controls on the keyboard/controller.
There are many resolution sizes.
You can play in fullscreen or windowed mode.
There is a music volume slidebar available.
There is a sound volume slidebar available.
There is an ambience sound volume slidebar available.
There are many difficulty settings and there are 2 different difficulty settings Combat and strategic.
Able to skip the tutorial.
[h1]About the game.[/h1]
You start off in a blank white area. Where you are going to select a "hero". There is hearts, attack power and ammo. Ammo is needed to call your "Super power". Once you have selected a hero you can give it a name. Once you have spawned on the castle, You can change and choose your perks here. You can also choose a different Element attribute. Try them all out before you go on. I would recommend FAST (DPS) spells, so you can steamroll through the levels.
Once you are on the strategic world map. You will see a few things that might be confusing. You will see yellow characters, these are your people. Each turn they will gather resources or capture new units. You can only place them on the light tiles. There is also a danger level, If there is no protection and nearby dark area's the danger level will be higher then in other area's. You can move your units on top of the light tiles and they will perform action in the next turn. You can do all light tiles without doing a turn. Starting on a flicker tile and reaching the end on the level will end your turn.. If you have died, your troops will get weaker and will perform less damage against enemies. (This also counts for multiplayer). Most of the time you will just ignore all of the monsters anyway in the levels, but you could find some loot to make it easier.
Confusing game at start.
It takes time to actually start liking the game or to understand it.
Music is decent.
Graphics are a bit meh, but you shouldn't pay attention to it all too much.
Multiplayer is IP BASED. Servers are dead So YOU HAVE TO HOST!
[h1]Other things.[/h1]
i have played Valley without wind 1 and 2. But this one is soo much better. I have seriously no clue what i am doing in valley without wind 1.
-------------------
I Give this game a 7/10
Its unconventional and addictive blend of classic platforming action and basic strategy segments makes every accomplishment more meaningful and every failure more devastating, and the very real possibility that you will fail to vanquish Demonaica raises the stakes enough to make everything more interesting still.
Reading a lot of negative reviews, especially from people who say that AVWW1 is better, I'll say mine and that is that Valley 2 is a much better game than its predecessor. First, it's a game, while AVWW1 was just barely. It has a sense of progression, and meaningfulness in what you do, while in the first title you spent hours realizing that you lost time and didn't make any real progress, and even if you progress in that game, you progress towards nothing because the game has no end (maybe if you care about achievements you can go on until you unlock them all). Not so in Valley 2, where the turn-based strategical part of the game is also much better. As in Valley 1, every game is totally different from the others, and this is also a great plus, and makes them stand apart for their originality, but overall Valley 2 is a much better balanced and fun game, where Valley 1 is fun for a while, but then it becomes repetitive and without goal.
класноя игра но требует времени что б разабратся
I cannot reccomend this game on the basis that it is inferior to AVWW 1.
The original was a bizarre platforming shooter with copious resource gathering/crafting/upgrading. In a terrible design descision most of these elements have been stripped out (stream-lined?), and a greater emphasis has been put on the narrative and strategy elements, which were the least interesting aspects in the original.
I have honestly tried to enjoy this game in it's own right, but cannot find much fun in it. Aside from the slight improvements in graphics, this is perhaps one of the worst steps backwards I have seen from a sequel. However, the original remains a classic and has a great deal of replayability... go buy it instead.
Something doesn't quite work with the procedural generation aspects, and the face that you've got a board game mixed with a platformer... Not quite sure, but it just doesn't quite work.
